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Becoming an Atheist: Prayer

The valkyrie Sigrdrífa says a pagan Norse pray...Image via Wikipedia

While part of the Oahu Church of Christ all night prayer sessions were not uncommon.  I’m serious we would stay up all night long and pray for specific things like: saving family member’s souls, protection from our worst sins, guidance in decision making, etc.  At that time we were also “evangelizing” campus, malls, and beaches.   This “evangelizing” was cold contact marketing of our church: just walk-up to a stranger and invite them to church.  This was also very much part of our daily prayers.  If you are an Atheist, you can probably already see where this post is going.  If you are a Christian or other Theist that believes in prayer, I have an interesting proposition for you.  Keep a pray diary, and see how many of your prayers are answered with a “yes”.

Over the two and a-half years that I belonged to the “Kingdom”, I did not keep a pray diary.  What I did notice was that most of my prayers went unanswered.  I was doing everything expected of me, I was going above and beyond the call of duty, yet my prayers were not answered with a “yes”.  For example, I was reading the Bible daily (in fact, I read the whole thing twice), I was giving more than 10% in tithing, and I was confessing my sins daily, and I was evangelizing up to 100 people per day.  But the only prayer that has been even closely answered was that I wanted to be like Paul.  Paul was single and a great influence with his writings to the churches.  I got half the pray answered!!  People that I begged YHWH to save were not saved.  My struggles with sexuality were not lightened.  Knowing what the Word of God says about prayer made these results quite suspicious to me. 

Knowing what the Word of God says about prayer only lead me to understand that prayers are not answered with “No”.  Two very important verses in the Bible clearly contradict this Tradition of Men.  First, let me show you about belief and prayer:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

This verse is very straight forward:  all you have to do is believe (have faith) and the prayer will be answered…no matter what you ask for!  To say the least I had faith, but the prayers were not answered.  And even more critical verse about prayer is this one:

Matt 18:19-20 “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.  For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

You see, it is not even the weakness of one person that makes the prayer not answered.  When more than one person asks for the same thing…it is guaranteed to be done.  Well you can quickly imagine how this almost never worked.

I slowly began to see that whether I prayed or not, the result was the same.  Sometimes I got what I asked for and sometimes it just happened by circumstance.  It dawned on me that prayers were not answered by a supernatural being but by sheer coincidence.  Even worse, I realized that if you did the same thing enough times the odds favored a positive outcome on random occasions.  Worst of all, I started to realize that prayers got answered very similar to a phenomenon here in the US called the 100 year flood plain.  You see, statistically, prayers are just like the 100 year flood plain.  Instead of guaranteed results (as the Word of God promises), they happen only statistically on an average enough so that people believe that they have their prayers answered.  People, who believe in YHWH and prayer, have too low an expectation of YHWH.  A promise has been made that is not kept.  Why believe in a being that does not keep their promises?


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This entry was posted on May 9, 2009, 11:18 am at 11:18 and is filed under My Beliefs, Traditions of Men, Word of God, State of Mind, Becoming an atheist. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.

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11 Responses to “Becoming an Atheist: Prayer”

  1. Allen Scott says:
    May 9, 2009, 4:02 pm at 16:02

    Being a man of prayer and seeing the results of prayer I feel led to offer up just a few thoughts. My only purpose for doing so is so that others who may pass this way can get a glimpse of an alternate view on prayer.

    You quoted Mark 11:24 but you left out verse 22 as well as verse 25 I share them now.

    “Have faith in God.
    23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.
    24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
    25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

    Jesus starts off by saying HAVE FAITH in God! Now that does not mean have faith in faith but to actually have faith in the Supreme Being God. The only way one can have faith in God is to truly believe He is God and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Having faith in a religion, an institution, a pattern of prayer, or even having faith in prayer itself will not accomplish anything if there is doubt in your heart that God is faithful and can be trusted to do what He says He will do, and that He hears and answers prayers.

    I know from personal experience that not all prayers get answered because many prayers are more like GOD I DARE YOU.. or GOD IF YOU ARE REAL then.. Or selfish prayers like I pray I win the lottery. Just repeating prayer language does not mean one is actually entreating God. You have to really believe you are speaking with the creator of the universe. That is the beginning.

    Verse 25 of that same chapter goes on to say that when you pray you must forgive grievances against anyone and that would also include any grievances you may have with God.

    You then cited Matt 11:19-20 but did not point out that the two or three must be gathered in Jesus’ name. They must be gathered for the purpose of seeking Jesus. They must be gathered together as saints of God, true believers in God, actual disciples of Jesus, because it states they gather in His name. Not the name of a church or denomination or some personality but in the name of Christ. They gather not to seek their own ways or purposes but to inquire of Him about His ways. This may sound kinda high minded but you can not just pick a scripture out of the bible and say THIS SHOULD work if you have not taken the time to GET TO KNOW the author of the book.

    All the promises require a RELATIONSHIP with God and not just a knowledge of Him. The devil believes in God but does not receive blessings from God because he exists to thwart God’s plans and purposes.

    And then perhaps the most telling statement you made was this one: People that I begged YHWH to save were not saved. My struggles with sexuality were not lightened.

    Begging to save. There has to be a repentance that precedes salvation. The person has to have the want to to be helped (saved). They have to be drawn toward God by His spirit. It is not a work of man for with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible but not everything will happen the way we think they should. Example. Israel cried out to God for deliverance from Egyptian bondage. It took a while but God finally got around to it and when the deliverance first started things got worse. Sometimes when God is moving on behalf of someone’s prayer the situations in a persons life get far worse then before they pray. It is at these times when many will say FORGET it and just go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before they prayed.

    I can not answer to all situations but I can only relate my own. The old adage goes it is always darkest before the dawn fits more times then not when praying to God. Things get far worse before they get better. Because God’s ways are certainly not our ways and His ways will be contrary to the way we think things should go.

    And then finally. Sexual sins or any other sin requires a TURNING away from and a RENEWING of our mind about. What I mean is we have to think on GOOD Things and not meditate on damaging thoughts or allow LUST to have its way in our life. Apart from the Spirit of God we are unable to resist temptation and are drawn away by the lusts of our Flesh. The scripture that covers this particular problem would probably be:

    5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
    8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    Romans 8:5-9 (NKJV)

    There is a requirement to be thinking about spiritual things (heavenly things) and on things that please God and not engaging our thoughts on how to please our fleshly desires. This is a struggle which Paul points out in the preceding chapters of the book of Romans.

    And then finally there is this little gem:

    4 Dwell in Me, and I will dwell in you. [Live in Me, and I will live in you.] Just as no branch can bear fruit of itself without abiding in (being vitally united to) the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
    6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you and continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
    John 15:4-7 (AMP)

    We can not live our lives separate and unmindful of Christ and His word. WE must remain steadfast to do what His word says do and keep the Word of God foremost in our hearts and in our lives. By doing so you are abiding in a right relationship with God and then you are able to produce Godly fruit. Otherwise no fruit will appear.

    I know this is a rather lengthy discourse but I felt it was needed.

  2. dc-agape says:
    May 9, 2009, 9:23 pm at 21:23

    Allen Scott,
    What you have done is the purpose of this blog. Some of your arguments are unfortunately not specific to the cases that I presented. To understand my full experience with religion you should read my posts of introduction and the other posts in Becoming an Atheist.
    All of your examples were carried out with the greatest of care to ensure that the points that you mention were correct. The YHWH that you worship was a personal relationship that I had since youth. But it was not a two way relationship…”God helps those who help themselves” is the best way I can sum up the results of my relationship with YHWH.
    My church’s group prayers were done as you describe. My personal prayers were done as you pointed out. None of them were done with personal selfish requests or as dares. I truly believed in YHWH and his power, and knew that these people would die unsaved if he did not intervene. And if you were to ever meet me, you would know that I hold no hatred or contempt for people in my heart. With or without spiritual understanding holding such thoughts only brings pain and suffering to the holder.
    And yes, you are right, I have been told many times that YHWH would get around to it, in his own time. But how many people must die (and go to hell) while he is getting around to it? Human life is frail and death comes all too quickly. If YHWH does not have urgency, then where is YHWH’s love?
    Your quote from Romans is quite telling. In fact, my next series of posts will be about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This set of verses from the Word of God are important to the Atheist as well as the Theist. Note particularly the section that says “the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace” (NIV). Freewill is lost when you are born again. And with the help of the Spirit (controlling you mind) lust should not be a temptation. Yet this is not true, how many examples do you need?
    I specifically left out Mark 11:22-23 and 25 for a reason. In the history of mankind has a mountain been thrown into the sea by faith? There certainly would be proof that the mountain was moved. No it has not, which means that no human has ever had faith in YHWH! I left out verse 25 as well, Christians should not hold a grudge. Yet I have not meet a single one that can do this. Where is the Spirit helping them (controlling their minds)? Both additional verses have become more proof to me that YHWH does not exist, but neither verse was useful in this particular post.

  3. Kay says:
    May 9, 2009, 10:39 pm at 22:39

    I am a little surprised—I don’t know christianity so I apologise—but in the above post —God almost seems like a vending machine! Is that what God is/was to christians?

  4. dc-agape says:
    May 10, 2009, 12:13 am at 00:13

    kay,
    If you read the comment by Allen Scott along with the post it must have seemed like prayer is a vending machine. And yes, Christians are taught that YHWH will answer their prayers. The New Testament even promises that all prayers will be answered (to the favor of the supplicant).
    Since this does not happen in the real world, Christian apologies (Allen’s comments) are written to explain why prayers are not answered with “yes”.

  5. Kay says:
    May 10, 2009, 10:05 am at 10:05

    Thanks for clarifying. Your posts are always interesting and so were Allens points on flesh/carnal mind.

  6. dc-agape says:
    May 10, 2009, 10:11 am at 10:11

    kay,
    You are welcome. I hope that Allen was not a “hit-and-run”. He appears to be quite knowledgeble about some aspects of Christianity that would enlighten this blog.

  7. KattyBlackyard says:
    June 14, 2009, 7:38 pm at 19:38

    Hi, very nice post. I have been wonder’n bout this issue,so thanks for posting

  8. CrisBetewsky says:
    July 6, 2009, 2:42 pm at 14:42

    Where did you take from such kind of information? Can you give me the source?

  9. dc-agape says:
    July 6, 2009, 10:35 pm at 22:35

    CrisBetewsky,
    Most of the information I used was from personal experience with Christianity. My links at the top of the page to the Oahu Church of Christ is a good starting point for that perspective. The rest comes directly from the Bible (New International Version) which can be read free at BibleGate.com.

  10. Usenet Trial says:
    July 29, 2009, 6:20 pm at 18:20

    Great idea, but will this work over the long run?

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